#2 | Natasha Tuck - VMware and sustainability strategy transcript
Please find the transcript with Natasha Tuck (@nstuck), Senior Sustainability Manager at VMware, a leading Silicon Valley technology firm. We discuss VMware’s strategies for being a corporate leader in sustainability and a major milestone they have already accomplished, becoming 100% carbon neutral two years ahead of schedule.
VMware's virtualization technology makes I.T. infrastructure more efficient which fundamentally changes how their customers use power and with their tech, VMware's clients have avoided putting 540 million metric tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. That's the equivalent to powering 68 percent of U.S. households for one year.
You can learn more about VMware here: https://www.vmware.com.
[00:00:53] Information about how much carbon VMware's clients have saved was taken from this article: https://www.vmware.com/radius/achieving-carbon-neutrality/.
[00:05:48] You can read the press release of this announcement here: https://www.vmware.com/company/news/releases/vmw-newsfeed.VMware-Achieves-Carbon-Neutrality-and-Partners-with-City-of-Palo-Alto-on-Community-Microgrid-as-Part-of-Global-Impact-Initiative.1641169.html.
[00:07:47] This article really helped me understand the differences between Scopes 1, 2, and 3 emissions, as well as the difference between Carbon Neutral and 100% renewable energy: http://100percentrenewables.com.au/carbon-neutral-100-renewable/.
[00:11:38] The stat Natasha referred to is that in Guatemala, 97 percent of water sources are contaminated, leading to the death of one in 20 children before the age of five. You can read more about it here: https://www.vmware.com/radius/low-carbon-sustainable-development/.
You can learn more about the Ecofiltro projects here: https://www.ecofiltro.com/en.
You can learn more about Ecofiltro's cookstove in this video: https://youtu.be/HpSuLc2qly4.
[00:20:48] You can read more about renewable energy credits here: https://www.epa.gov/greenpower/renewable-energy-certificates-recs.
[00:33:33] Natasha’s two book recommendations:
1) Leaving Microsoft to Change the World by John Wood
Daniel: [00:00:09] Did you know that data centers are responsible for 2 percent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions? That's roughly the same as global air travel.
Daniel: [00:00:18] Hey, this is Daniel Hartz with sustainability matters today a podcast where I showcase pioneers of sustainability and discover their journeys. The aim of these conversations is to share ideas from leaders in the field on how companies are integrating eco-friendly methodologies into their businesses. Through these talks I hope to uncover ways you as an individual can incorporate environmentally friendly practices into your daily life. In this episode my guest is Natasha Tuck senior sustainability manager at VMware where she has been working for almost four years to make the company a leader in sustainability.
Daniel: [00:00:53] VMware's virtualization technology makes I.T. infrastructure more efficient which fundamentally changes how their customers use power and with their tech, VMware's clients have avoided putting 540 million metric tons of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. That's the equivalent to powering 68 percent of U.S. households for one year. We talk about why sustainability isn't an industry in itself but rather a mindset that can and must be applied in any company in any industry. Natasha answered the questions What is carbon neutrality and how can a company offset its carbon.
Daniel: [00:01:30] We discussed the amazing work VWware is doing to bring clean water to rural areas in Guatemala and the highlight of this episode, in my opinion, is the return on investment companies are seeing removing to eco-friendly practices. Finally, Natasha recommends some great books that should inspire you to make a change in the world. Let's jump in.
Daniel: [00:01:51] I'm excited to be speaking with Natasha Tuck, joining us today from Silicon Valley, California.
Daniel: [00:01:57] Natasha is a senior sustainability manager at VMware, one of the world's largest cloud computing and platform virtualization software and services. Natasha, today I'd love to ask about how you got started in this industry, why it's important to you, the work you're doing at VMware, and then I'd love to get your advice for simple and sustainable things people listening to this podcast can do today to make a difference in their environment both at work and at home. How does that sound?
Natasha: [00:02:27] That sounds great. Hi Daniel, good to be here.
Daniel: [00:02:31] Yeah, thanks for joining me. Let's just jump into the first question then by taking a step back: I'd love to know what does sustainability mean to you.
Natasha: [00:02:41] What does sustainability mean to me. So, for me, and I'll just - you know - obviously, speak from my own perspective, but how I came to sustainability was you know through my own personal interest in it, which I believe is true for a lot of people. So what it means for me is: figuring out what's important to you at an individual level and then taking those actions, whether they seem small or large, from composting to offsetting your travel, to purchasing renewable energy with your local utility, to eating well, to eating organic food.
Natasha: [00:03:23] So that was actually how I got started - I was very interested in organic food and my personal health and well-being. And then learning about that space and eventually seeing how that ripples out into the world. That is how I now see it from my company perspective, which is you know a large global company that has the opportunity to have a huge impact based on the things that we buy for our operations our purchased goods and services to how we run our operations internally everyday.
Daniel: [00:03:58] Great. And what's one of the challenges you faced once you got started in this industry?
Natasha: [00:04:02] Hmm... in this industry. I think what's interesting about sustainability and what is interesting about the sustainability industry, if you will, is that it's not really its own thing it's it's inside of every industry, right? So I think the challenge partly for people is to - we get so hooked on industries right: what industry you've worked in, or what industry you want to be in and sustainability is relevant to probably - I can't think of an industry that it's not relevant to.
Natasha: [00:04:41] So I think for me getting started it was just a matter of trying out different things. I joined a couple of different startups. I wanted to be doing something new. So I had grown up in the real estate space and I did green building consulting for a little bit, but I wanted to continue learning. So for me that was why I was thrilled at the opportunity at VMware to get into the tech industry and really see what does sustainability mean for a software company. This is a question we still ask.
Daniel: [00:05:19] Interesting. I'm glad you mentioned that because software, at least on the face of it, you're not really producing a physical good. So you'd think there's less pollution, but it turns out that whenever you do any activity you use energy and there's all sorts of byproducts that come from that. So VMware recently became certified carbon neutral across all its offices in November 2018.
Natasha: [00:05:47] Yep.
Daniel: [00:05:48] And what's amazing is that it was two years ahead of schedule. Which is unbelievable. Congratulations on that!
Natasha: [00:05:56] Yeah we're super proud of that.
Daniel: [00:05:58] Yeah, I'm sure. And for some background, could you just explain or provide some context as to what it means to be carbon neutral specifically?
Natasha: [00:06:10] Well that is an excellent question. So yes carbon neutrality. So the truth is that it often should have an asterisk when people refer to it because people define it differently. So because it is a little bit ambiguous and not always clear what companies mean when they claim carbon neutrality. For example we knew that it was an aspiration of ours. We actually said it as a public target in 2015 to achieve by 2020. And then in doing the research to get there and hearing companies along the way claiming carbon neutrality, we would often try to get to the bottom of it and figure out what exactly like how are they defining it and what is the right definition and what exactly do we have to offset?
Natasha: [00:07:03] Because there are some things in your business that you're going to create carbon emissions, for example for business travel, because we do fly - we have to fly for sales and all of those things - and planes still use dirty fuel. So we then landed upon or somehow came up - well I shouldn't say somehow - it was our carbon offset partner actually offers something called the Carbon Neutral Protocol. So we were excited to sign up to that since it was very clear what is included what is not. And we actually took it a step further and got Carbon Neutral Company Certification.
Natasha: [00:07:47] So what that means and what the requirements are is to - and this gets a little technical - but you have to offset your Scope 1 emissions which are your onsite, emissions, say from chiller equipment or you know big HVAC equipment or anything like that as well as any fleets that you have. And then - transportation, excuse me.
Natasha: [00:08:11] And then Scope 2 which is your purchased electricity. And then Scope 3 - this is a whole new, I don't want to say can of worms - but it is a big bucket. They were all still honestly kind of not all, but the lion's share of us are still getting our heads around Scope 3 and what that means and what we're supposed to be accountable for; so long story short, the Carbon Neutral Protocol - to claim yourself as a Carbon Neutral Company you have to cover your Scope 1, your Scope 2, and your business travel for Scope 3. So we offset all of our corporate air travel through carbon offset projects which we now refer to as Low-Carbon Sustainable Development Projects.
Daniel: [00:09:02] Gotcha. And so that scope 3 one is, it sounds like depending on who you talk to there will be different ways of understanding...
Natasha: [00:09:11] Slicing, yes or what you take care of. And in fact, some people used to just cover Scope 1 and 2 and call it Carbon Neutral because that was what people thought about when they thought about a company's carbon footprint. Whereas today - and I'm talking maybe even just as recent as three years ago - but today, we know more and more (we're always learning) and our Scope 3s have kind of ballooned out or grown as we've gotten more data and been able to, for example, get emissions numbers from our suppliers. That's its own set of large numbers to then grapple with and fit into your overall carbon footprint.
Daniel: [00:09:57] Especially if the scope 3 emissions are constantly changing definition every year, you have to be flexible to what those changes are and make the changes within your business in order to meet the new definitions or...
Natasha: [00:10:13] And it's not - just to be clear - less about the - so there are actually very defined areas of Scope 3, but it's getting the data for those and then it's the being transparent about what you are offsetting.
Daniel: [00:10:27] Right.
Natasha: [00:10:28] So that's where it's sort of evolving and people are generally taking responsibility for more and more of their Scope 3, but that's sort of what's changing. So we're trying to lead and be as transparent as possible which is why we were excited about the Carbon Neutral Protocol and just having somewhere for people to go and actually see very clearly how it's spelled out and what's included and how it works.
Daniel: [00:11:00] Yeah, makes sense.
Daniel: [00:11:02] The carbon neutral projects that are actually offsetting everything - what would count as an offsetting project?
Natasha: [00:11:09] Yeah so what we did we made one big investment. We have a couple of projects, but our largest investment is in a project in Guatemala. Which might make you scratch your head, quite frankly. And the reason that we decided on this project was that, well 1) we were looking at where can we have the biggest impact?
Daniel: [00:11:38] Right.
Natasha: [00:11:38] We we don't want to just buy a carbon offset and add that be done. We want to really participate in a project and provide what we call "carbon financing" - which is, essentially, they get the money, we get the carbon offset - to a project where it could really make a difference. So we work with a project in Guatemala. It's called Ecofiltro. I butchered that a little bit, in Spanish. It might be "Ecofiltro", but we work with them and they are really transforming the water situation in Guatemala. So it is pretty dire there, where a lot of - I forget the exact statistics but I can look them up actually and send them over to you - but it's something like ninety five percent of illness in Guatemala is due to waterborne disease.
Daniel: [00:12:35] Wow.
Natasha: [00:12:36] So by addressing this issue of clean water for the rural population you resolve so much of the local illnesses. So we - the project is a water filtration project and it's a really cool, super simple technology. It's a clay filter and what's unique about the project - and this gets into some detail - but we actually went to Guatemala and visited the project. I know twist my arm. It was such a hard decision to make.
Daniel: [00:13:14] Yeah I'm sure.
Natasha: [00:13:16] So we went and we wanted to see it on the ground and what was fascinating is that their model - so this particular group the Ecofiltro Group - their model is unique, in that it is not philanthropy. They are not dropping off free water filters across the Guatemalan countryside. There is a small portion that is paid by the families. So it's very affordable, but it is still an amount of money that is paid so that there is quote unquote skin in the game or - actually that might not be a good phrase to use. I'm not sure what the right phrase is, but...
Daniel: [00:13:59] They're more invested.
Natasha: [00:14:00] They're very invested right. So they have a small investment in it and because of that, those water filters are the most sparkling, clean things in those houses. I mean they take such good care. It is a precious thing. Obviously, clean water is so important. So, yeah it's an amazing project and they're scaling. And that was what our contribution really supported was the increasing the size of the factory, so that they could truly scale the project and like I said we were just really excited because it could change the landscape of drinking water in Guatemala. This project alone. So really exciting one.
Natasha: [00:14:49] They also do clean cookstoves which is another technology we could talk about, but that that was also really interesting because people probably don't realize all of the co-benefits of clean cookstoves, which are people actually go to cut down trees for their very inefficient wood-burning stoves. Which is deforestation, which is obviously time, which is obviously hardship. So these clean cookstoves do again like so much for the communities and reduce the cutting down of forests, trees etc. And we were actually in some of the homes and that previous style of cooking - the wood-burning like open-fire stoves - is terrible for your health.
Daniel: [00:15:35] I imagine, all the smoke.
Natasha: [00:15:37] Oh my goodness. I mean really tons of smoke and soot. So these clean burning stoves or cookstoves really make a difference. And we actually assembled one so that was really fun and super easy and they're really good looking. All of us wanted one.
Daniel: [00:15:54] That's cool.
Natasha: [00:15:55] Yeah.
Daniel: [00:15:55] Yeah it must be crazy to through burning wood inside of their house.
Natasha: [00:16:00] Yes. And not a large house.
Daniel: [00:16:03] Right, exactly. It's a little space. And if there is no proper chimneys set up or anything like that it just goes up.
Natasha: [00:16:12] Exactly.
Daniel: [00:16:14] And stays there. Must be awful. One thing that I'm finding very interesting about this Ecofiltro project is that - in my mind, at least - carbon offsetting would be: for every hour of electricity you use, you would plant 25 trees or something like that. In my mind it was always a more kind of one-to-one, in that sense. But it seems that carbon financing isn't necessarily about specifically carbon sequestration and more about doing good in the world, perhaps for people who may not be able to get clean water or clean food. Is that a fair thing to say or am I missing it?
Natasha: [00:16:58] No I think that's exactly right. And I think what's interesting is that over time, we lose track of why certain mechanisms were put into place. And carbon offset projects were initially developed as a mechanism to support the development of poorer countries. Because we knew that more developed countries were emitting more carbon and that there was this injustice or inequity. And that is how carbon offsets came about. And to your point like there are there are different kinds of carbon offset projects. So you can you can pay for a carbon offset where they are just burning - I shouldn't say "just" because carbon is carbon no matter where you are and you are pulling the same amount of carbon out depending on you know for these projects you're just doing it in a different way. But you can burn landfill gas. So that's one example. Not very sexy, but it works.
Natasha: [00:18:07] Or you can do a project where I think to what you were getting at which is there are lots of other benefits. So, in addition to it being an actual carbon offset project and you are preventing more carbon from being emitted into the atmosphere, you are also addressing all of these issues affecting society and local communities. We were definitely very attracted to those types of projects.
Daniel: [00:18:39] That's very cool. I think one thing it definitely highlights to me is that it goes beyond just planting more trees or... Really, carbon financing - when you see that a company is carbon neutral, chances are that they're actually helping people just like you are you're helping real humans in a place where they may not have otherwise access to clean water in this specific case.
Natasha: [00:19:11] Well you're right and that's an excellent point and I think it is it's so important that it's not just a claim. It's not just "carbon neutral" and you know there is this idea or this notion this myth that - I shouldn't say "myth" - it can be true but it's unfortunately gotten a bad rap where someone might say, "you're buying your way out of it".
Daniel: [00:19:33] Right.
Natasha: [00:19:34] But actually there are tons of opportunities to have a very positive impact and to do some real good in the world, by doing your carbon neutrality in this way or achieving it in this way.
Daniel: [00:19:48] Makes sense. Obviously there's the maintaining of the carbon neutrality and now the next step is really taking it one step further, for lack of a better word. And that would be going to 100 percent renewable energy.
Natasha: [00:20:01] Yes.
Daniel: [00:20:04] That fits under the Scope 2 emissions?
Natasha: [00:20:08] Yes, that fits under Scope 2, exactly. So we are we are now striving for 100 percent renewable energy and I just you know - note to whoever's listening - that this area can get very confusing because you might wonder how you can get to carbon neutrality without already having 100 percent renewable energy.
Natasha: [00:20:27] But the truth, is you can. So there are lots of different paths which is why again I'll refer to the Carbon Neutral Protocol because it sort of outlines all of these different ways that you can do this. So you can offset your Scope 2 either with RECs or even carbon offsets for the protocol.
Daniel: [00:20:47] And sorry what's a REC?
Natasha: [00:20:48] Oh, sorry - REC. It is a renewable energy credit or certificate. I am forgetting the global term for it. It has a new term that people like to... Oh, I think it's an energy attribute credit and EAC. Yeah. So people often refer to it as a REC but it is an energy attribute credit. So there are different ways to achieve carbon neutrality. And one of them is to have your Scope 2 be 100 percent renewable energy, which is our goal.
Natasha: [00:21:26] In the meantime there are different ways to achieve the carbon neutrality claim, which is to say, for example, purchase an offset for that Scope 2 that is not yet fully renewable. So, that's where we're at right now and we are aiming to be 100 percent renewable energy, which basically means you know we've procured renewable energy for our global operations via different mechanisms. So it could either be a local utility that's now providing us with green power, it could be a solar system on our own roof, or it could be purchasing an energy attribute credit from the local sort of market. So our goal is to do that by 2020 and we are well on our way. I think our last reporting year we were at 77 percent and this year we're hoping to be around 88 percent. And then we will get there completely by 2020.
Daniel: [00:22:22] Amazing. That's really exciting. And so those energy attribute credits.
Natasha: [00:22:28] Yes.
Daniel: [00:22:29] Essentially, it's kind of like I'm buying - it's almost like a token saying when I buy these I'm guaranteeing that one credit equals to X amount of energy, and my company requires, let's say, 100 credits a year. So I will buy 100 credits and that essentially guarantees that my company's worth of energy will be supplied through green power.
Natasha: [00:22:55] Green power or renewable energy.
Daniel: [00:22:56] Right. I always find that green energy and, electricity specifically, to be quite confusing just because it's not like you're changing the wires on the buildings. You're just, you know, it's all coming from the same - seemingly from the same spot.
Natasha: [00:23:13] Yes, the space is very complicated. And honestly the energy attribute credit space. It took me years to understand this and I still sometimes my head gets tripped up and I go, "wait, what? How does it work?" So I mean the key thing for people to understand is that - well one of the key things, with regard to the REC or an energy attribute credit is that there's two things you get. For example, just keep it simple, from a solar system. So say that you have a solar system and you obviously get your power from the sun in that case, but you get the actual electricity that you need. You also get what you referred to sort of as the token. So that's called the "attribute" and that's the - it's the the tradeable thing the tradable instrument.
Daniel: [00:24:12] Right.
Natasha: [00:24:13] That you must own in order to claim the renewable energy from that solar farm. So it gets the space gets pretty complicated and even that notion alone just people need to get their heads around it to understand it. But to your other point, the space is is very complicated and you can, for example, my utility - I'm in San Francisco. PG&E is the local utility. I can sign up with them for quote unquote green power - nothing really changes for me. And to your point the wires are the same. But what I've done is I've kind of raised my hand, one, to demand renewable energy. And as more people do that, the utilities - what they're responsible for is distribution, generally - where they source their power is what is changing. So it's very opaque. But that's essentially what's happening is that with demand, a lot of utilities are sourcing more of their power from renewable energy and that's how you can sign up for renewable energy through your local utility and experience no change in some ways.
Daniel: [00:25:36] It's one of the funny things that's really just you sort of feel good, a bit but you don't really see any immediate change.
Natasha: [00:25:44] Right.
Daniel: [00:25:45] It's not like you're getting a new thing at home.
Natasha: [00:25:48] You're not getting a new thing and your electricity it doesn't look any different.
Daniel: [00:25:52] Yeah, exactly. Your lights are turning on the same way. It's more like you just have to think about it and remember every time you turn it on, that "Hey, this is clean."
Natasha: [00:26:01] Exactly. And I want to point out, it's more than feeling good about it. I mean, you really have done something, right? Because this is also something that comes up when you're purchasing these renewable energy credits and things like this - is people ask "Well, what's it really doing? And is it valuable? Is it really moving the market?" And I would argue, yes these are all signals, small or large, that are impacting the market and that are letting the utilities or governments know that whether as an individual or a company, that we care about this and we want to procure green power.
Daniel: [00:26:43] Makes sense. Like you said raising your hand and, not forcing, but essentially guiding the supplier to change the way they source their energy, which is crucial. Switching gears, VMware has a sustainability team, which makes me think that for a company it's a wise financial decision to invest in sustainability. Would you say that that's true?
Natasha: [00:27:10] Yes. I mean, I am obviously biased but it is critical and it's critical today. And it's actually it's surprising how small these teams generally still are. So we just doubled the size of our team from two to four over the last year.
Daniel: [00:27:31] 100% growth!
Natasha: [00:27:31] And so we're thrilled. But it is you know it's still an absolutely tiny team for all of the things that - I was going to say we want to get done - but I would now say we need to get done. So yeah they're absolutely critical. And I do think companies are starting to realize that and I'm starting to see bigger teams and you're also starting to see sustainability more embedded within business units. So somebody, for example, in the procurement team who is responsible for supply chain sustainability instead of just somebody on the sustainability team asking procurement to do things.
Daniel: [00:28:14] Right. Yeah, from the sort of ROI side, as companies are looking at it from a strictly, "here's the financial return I would get by investing in sustainability," first thing that comes to mind is what we talking about earlier where perhaps a consumer would be more motivated to - you know - if you have two companies to choose your product from all things being equal. The only difference between the companies one is certified carbon neutral for example and the other one is not. For example someone like me, I would say well if it's otherwise exactly the same, I would go for the certified carbon neutral or for the one that runs on 100 percent renewable energy. So from that point of view I see it as - you know - there is a financial incentive there because you can actually sway the decisions that your consumers make.
Natasha: [00:29:06] That's absolutely right. So I think what I'm hearing you say is that well, one it's about your brand.
Daniel: [00:29:13] Right.
Natasha: [00:29:14] Which is kind of the hardest thing to put an ROI on to be on honest.
Daniel: [00:29:17] True.
Natasha: [00:29:19] But people know that it matters. What is more tangible is that customers are asking. Customers are asking. So at VMware in my almost four years there, the number of customer inquiries about what we are doing when it comes to our environmental and social governance, as a company, in order for them to do business with us has easily tripled.
Daniel: [00:29:49] Wow.
Natasha: [00:29:49] Yeah, these questionnaires are intense and detailed and these are coming from big customers. So it is about having a sustainable business and listening to your customers and being - you know - a reputable brand who wants to lead in the space. And I would also say and again it's a little less tangible, but I strongly believe it that it is critical for talent acquisition and retention. I mean more and more I hear stories, which are just anecdotal, but stories about somebody, for example with regard to VMware, choosing VMware because they loved all of the sustainability work that we were doing or they heard that we wanted to be a force for good in the world or something something to that effect, right. Like that had a real influence on their decision to join the company.
Daniel: [00:30:50] That's incredible.
Natasha: [00:30:52] So I think it's huge. And I think we are seeing more and more people caring about that and when they're picking their company that they're going to work for, you know for sure that if everything else is equal, hands down they will go with the company that has a stronger focus on sustainability or excellent corporate citizenship.
Daniel: [00:31:15] Fantastic - good to know. One of the final questions as we start to wrap up here, what do you think is the most pressing sustainability or environmental issue that we as a population - that the world is facing today.
Natasha: [00:31:30] Yeah I mean I think it's how we live. And I think it's living beyond our means. And just changing individual patterns and lifestyle decisions I think is really challenging. And, I mean obviously it's it's carbon right. So we need to emit less carbon. And I think that we're going to get there by people starting individually to care about it. Which will then impact their decision making at home and at work. And then I would also mention that just sort of a big category is transportation. So for example one of the things that we're currently grappling with is air travel. We love face-to-face contact and absolutely believe that it is important to relationships right. So our sales teams and and our execs and our client account reps: these people need to travel. So we will have air travel. And that is some of the most polluting travel. So that needs to get resolved right. But it's a big hairy problem. And I know that there's stuff going on in that industry - in the airline industry - but it's slow to change. So I think those are kind of big - one of the big areas of focus that needs to be addressed and figured out. And then I think all of the demand that we talked about earlier and really people pushing for that for it to happen sooner rather than later. Needs to happen.
Daniel: [00:33:14] Makes sense. Very last question: do you have a book or books that you could recommend for someone who's interested in learning more about these topics or a book that perhaps is very inspirational in terms of things that are being changed or done in the world around us?
Natasha: [00:33:33] Yeah. OK. So I'll mention two. And one of them, mind you, I read many years ago, but it inspired me to leave my very comfortable, lucrative gig for something different. And that was by John Woods, I believe I'm getting his name right, and it was called - is called Leaving Microsoft to Change the World. So I love that book. And it was hugely inspirational for me. And then the other book that I would recommend, which is more recent, is Paul Hawken's book Drawdown which came out a year or two ago now is - one, it's a gorgeous book - photographs are ridiculous. And two, it's about solutions. So they've articulated the solutions that we have today because there's this temptation to say well we can't do it yet or that's got to happen in the future. No, we actually have solutions today that will reduce our carbon emissions significantly and can get us to where we need to go. So that also is a hugely inspirational book and it's really interesting and beautiful.
Daniel: [00:34:59] Well both of those sounds really interesting. Thank you for bringing them up. I look forward to reading both of them and I think that's our time. So thank you so much for joining me today. It's been an absolute pleasure and very interesting and educational.
Natasha: [00:35:13] And it's been my pleasure, Daniel. Thank you so much for the conversation.
Daniel: [00:35:20] Thank you so much for listening to Episode 2 of Sustainability Matters Today. You can find the links to the books and more info on the Ecofiltro project in the show notes which you can see on my website, SustainabilityMatters.Today. I'll be doing many more episodes so if you want to know when the next one is coming out please subscribe and you can be the first to know. Talk to you soon.